Interviewer: This year Guyana dropped two points on the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index which puts it among the most corrupt in the region. Do you accept that within this Government, within this country that there is a problem with corruption?
Jagdeo: First of all I have a problem with the indices but we do have real corruption in countries like ours too. So I believe a lot of these, one time, I think this is all, this is like a blackness index. The darker you are the lower you are on the index. The developed countries hardly ever get on this index and they have more institutional corruption in my view. When you have a lobbying system where people can lobby for policies I think that is a most corrupt act in a government, you can get people to lobby and pay lobbyists and it is accepted, it is a policy.
Interviewer: Back to Guyana (the words that followed are difficult to decipher)
Jagdeo: I am talking about that so, first of all it’s a perception index so they always perceive developing countries as corrupt. Now who do you speak to? Where does the perception come from? So it is absolutely…
Interviewer: It is the people, the Guyanese people
Jagdeo: So right, but exactly. So this is who you speak to because when you come to a country you can easily speak to TIGI which is the local chapter of the Transparency International which for five years we have just come out, I don’t, I am not surprised that we have slipped and I think we even start going further once we have start exposing more corruption. But the same TIGI in Guyana for five years remained silent. The index, so the index is determined based on openness in society also on acts of corruption. So let me tell you we just came out of an election. In the last five years from 2016 to 2018, three years in the last Government no one had to submit their statements to the Integrity Commission. Now in Guyana in 2000 when I was president we had passed a law which says that every elected official and other senior officials every year have to submit your statement of income and assets to the Integrity Commission. And you have to, the law, if you make a false declaration you can go to jail for over a year, there is a jail term there. We have faithfully done that from 2000, the year 2000 to 2015. The last government came in, three years no one submitted anything, no one submitted. The TIGI local chapter never ever mentioned that because many of them are aligned to the opposition. They never mentioned the trail, we have been exposing it. So I don’t have, I can imagine globally the people when they are preparing the index going through out newspapers and seeing that we are saying now that the last government for three years did not submit any statement to the Integrity Commission, financial statements. Secondly, we have just charged one of the ministers from the last government for a corrupt act. He transferred, although the lawyers advised him not to do so, he transferred a property that is worth about 30 million US dollars for 20 million that would be like a one thousand US dollars, transfer title. We have charged him, we have exposed a ton of corruption. We spent, after the last no confidence motion, without parliamentary oversight in this country when the last government refused to hold the elections first of all and we had to go all the way to the Caribbean Court of Justice to force them to hold the elections, they failed, the constitution says three months after the passage of a no confidence motion. They spent two billion US dollars without parliamentary oversight. We had no parliament functioning in Guyana for 18 months. Why wouldn’t you think we wouldn’t drop on a global perception index measurement? Those are the real reasons, but we are fighting…(interrupted by the interviewer whose words were inaudible) we were fighting, five months after the elections they refused to leave office. This has to be conceived perception so there are real issues that’s why I started off by saying there are real issues. We have sought to strengthen the systems, so a proper procurement law, a integrity commission law, all of our financial laws updated, strong penalties for public expenditure [and] not utilizing public expenditure for their dedicated purposes etcetera. We tried to fix the system. Whether individuals would continue to be corrupt I can’t put my head on the block, you would have that, but the system has moved forward but when the system fails we have had systematic failure in the last government because the institutions that we put in place they never complied with it. The constitution first of all the no confidence motion was not complied with secondly the Integrity Commission law was not complied with. And I am surprised only in 2021 that’s going to be mentioned when it happened in 2016 to 2018 when we were in opposition every year shouting about this at the top of our voices.
Interviewer: What about within your Government, do you accept bribes?
Jagdeo: No, I don’t.
Interviewer: We have spoken to a number of Chinese business people in Guyana who said you do accept bribes. And they said in fact it’s the only way to get business done is to bribe you. One Chinese business person we have spoken (to) involved in timber logging said that basically as long as the Vice-President is okay with it it’s fine. He just need to give one phone call to whoever is in charge and they will get it done right away. The real big boss is the Vice-President and everything is under the table the whole country is like this.
Jagdeo: Yeah, well I can’t comment on that because it would be an anonymous person. You can just sit there and fabricate that. As I said before a lot of the companies and reporters (interrupted by the interviewer) but no if you name the person that’s fine. I can, any, well the reporters come from abroad this is their catch you kind of thing. They always want to make a developing country leader look corrupt. So you have done your bit, unless you say who the person is I can’t comment on anonymous people. I can say two persons told me before this interview, don’t do the interview with Vice News because that is precisely what they would do (interviewer speaking inaudibly) they would fabricate something and come and say they spoke with people here.
Interviewer: But we are not fabricating anything…
Jagdeo: Let me tell you something so all my statements are in with the Integrity Commission, the last Government they checked everything about me and they didn’t find anything. They checked my bank accounts abroad, they checked everything, they didn’t find anything. So there has to be the evidence of it, but you are not bringing evidence, you are saying an anonymous Chinese source (interrupted inaudibly again by interviewer) maybe the Chinese company that did not get the agreement that they wanted here, maybe there are the ones who told you. Or it could just be a fictitious thing.
Interviewer: Okay so let’s talk about this specific individual, what is your relationship with Mr. Su Zhirong.
Jagdeo: Oh Su? My relationship? Nothing, he is a tenant in my place yes.
Interviewer: And he is a friend of yours?
Jagdeo: Yes, am yes, yes he is a friend of ours, his father was here from many years ago.
Interviewer: He lives next door to you.
Jagdeo: Yes
Interviewer: He is able to arrange meetings and catch ups with you at any point of the day, he claims…
Jagdeo: As a friend, yes.
Interviewer: He claims that he has a very close relationship with you, he is able to get any deal done.
Jagdeo: Well, I don’t know if that…
Interviewer: And get you to change laws for investors.
Jagdeo: Then which law has been changed for any investor?
Interviewer: Su told us that if you want to get anything done in Guyana you need some hook ups, I am very close with the Vice-President and other officials. The Vice-President and I share a very close relationship, also you do the business he would help out no matter what. No one else can help like he does. He also said when he is talking about when he is talking to prospective investors the Vice-President said he can change the constitution, he said he can manage… everything is going to be done soon, he is treating us as brothers, he has already changed to help us as much as possible of course you have to give back to him in return.
Jagdeo: Yeah, but that is, I don’t know about giving back but I would do that to anybody who comes to my office. The American companies come here to see me and they have meetings. You asked to see me and I have an open door policy since I was President so people come to see me. But I have had a long history of being in public office and we have never, [had] any of this stuff you are talking about and all of my accounts are clear. If you are coming here with specifics, so I just heard what you read and that is totally accurate. I help as many people as I can, that is totally accurate what you read there. Unbelievably accurate, it’s accurate. So I help people out but it doesn’t mean for consideration, it does not mean for bribe because I believe we have a mission to help as many people as possible move forward in this country.
Interviewer: Well Su also told us that the amount will be divided between the Vice-President, it is going to be for service or processing fee…
Jagdeo: Oh really…
Interviewer: If we are going to do business together my boss is not going to directly take the money, obviously he is not going to transfer the money to him, the service charge in total is not for only me most of it is for the Vice-President. Do you need middlemen like Su in order to take money…so you can keep your hands free?
Jagdeo: (Shaking head) No, the answer is no.
Interviewer: Why do you think Su will say this?
Jagdeo: I don’t know, you would have to ask him.
Interviewer: He is saying…as he understands it from his stance that’s the truth.
Jagdeo: Well that is as he understands it so that’s why you will have to ask him but the answer is no.
Interviewer: So why do you think he is saying this to us?
Jagdeo: (Shrugging shoulders) I don’t know, I don’t know why don’t you ask him about that.
Interviewer: He is saying…
Jagdeo: Yeah but I have said to you that I don’t know (interviewer speaking inaudibly). If you are hoping (speaking louder) if you are hoping
Interviewer: This is how it works
Jagdeo: If you are hoping (interviewer speaking again inaudibly) yes if you are hoping to again drag me into this catch-me-you-know I got you there. I told you already no and I told you what you said what you read the part from the beginning part and that’s pretty accurate. That I help a lot of people who come here. A ton of people call me about getting this interview with you, people that I don’t even know and I left the Parliament building because I came here for it. It doesn’t, they, it doesn’t mean it is for consideration. I do help a lot of people so if you are looking to catch another, you have to get more details you have to get more details, you have to come with evidence. This is all hearsay, in this country you could say anything, you could say anything, it’s all hearsay.
Interviewer: So you are saying Mr Su, your close friend who lives next door to you, who meets up with you at any point of the day he needs to is lying?
Jagdeo: Yes, if he told you that, if he told you that but I am not saying that he told you that.
Interviewer: So you are saying we are lying?
Jagdeo: You could possibly be but I don’t know but if he told you that it is not true.
Interviewer: Su has shown us very lucrative contracts between himself and Chinese state run corporations to develop big infrastructure projects in Guyana. He told us that China State Construction Engineering construction they help the Chinese companies to make a deal. For now they pay me $500,000, it is not for…it is for my boss the Vice-President.
Jagdeo: China State what?
Interviewer: China State, it is the China state construction engineering…
Jagdeo: Who is? Which company? I don’t even know what construction…
Interviewer: China State, one of the big construction companies involved
Jagdeo: In oil?
Interviewer: No in construction, in building construction
Jagdeo: But I can’t comment because it is not true again. It is not true…
Interviewer: We have seen, you know he is someone, he is an agent, he is someone who negotiates contracts for foreign companies coming into this country.
Jagdeo: Yeah I, but it is not true I so I don’t, I don’t know. You asking me to comment on someone whose business basically I don’t know about, I don’t get involved with him beyond the pleasantries and all of that. So how could I comment, it is not reasonable to ask me to comment on something I don’t know about and I am assuming is false.
Interviewer: So you don’t know how Su makes his money?
Jagdeo: (Opens a bottle of water and drinks). I don’t know how he makes his money. There are a lot of people, lobbyist and stuff like that that are here. But if you check our policy making you will see it’s clear.
Interviewer: We met with a manager from a Chinese state run corporation who confirmed that they use individuals like Su in order to get these deals done and they pay consulting fees which essentially serves as a bribe for officials like you.
Jagdeo: Well I don’t know because again that’s all, you are building everything what you have met and what people told you, I don’t know, I can’t comment on some anonymous manager now telling you something.
Interviewer: I mean these…(inaudible) have business interests in this country
Jagdeo: (Speaking loudly) But why do you want me
Interviewer: There are so many people who are telling us that that’s the way deals get done… (Inaudible)
Jagdeo: Speaking loudly again. Yeah but don’t you know it’s a typical thing that every report that comes from abroad you had to come here to try to prove somebody corrupt right? You are going to do well if you go back (interviewer speaking inaudibly) and broadcast this but I am not…I am not going to fall into this by getting worked up or anything like that. I know its fabrication either from the persons or induced by you so to fulfill your mandate when you come here you have to ensure that somebody looks corrupt. That’s your mandate.
Interviewer: I am not trying to make anybody look corrupt, I am trying to report on the facts…
Jagdeo: But anybody could have anonymously tell you (interviewer speaking inaudibly) yes but any person could have anonymously tell you anything anonymously. You expect me to comment on a manager on what he does with Su. How can I comment who does business with Su when I don’t know what is the nature of Su’s business. So why would I even want comment on this. You keep trying to get me to do something that I simply can’t do
Interviewer: Will you investigate at least…
Jagdeo: No, no definitely I am going to ask about all of this but I can’t comment reasonably. How can I comment on these issues?
Interviewer: So what would you investigate? I mean when we send you these details of you know…
Jagdeo: But the best way to do this, not to have me investigate but let’s write the Integrity Commission. The Integrity Commission should get all of this, they should be able to access what my assets are and then see if I can’t account for any assets. It is easy in today’s world to find assets.
Interviewer: I mean not…because what Su is saying is essentially that he is acting as the middleman…he has been keeping your hands clean.
Jagdeo: But ultimately the assets, if you are saying that, has to come to the so call individual so they have to have a manifestation of the assets somewhere. It has to be kept in a bank account or in stocks or in shares or something. So it is easy to check that, it’s easy to check that, that is where if you are serious you would start there. But I can go to any place there and talk to people, there are a lot of people who don’t like me because I am blunt I’ll come and I will say to you if I can help or if I can’t help. Because many of them come to ask for things that are not, we would never do, like in the forestry sector or in mining or anything like that. I don’t, I will never, if I feel there is discrimination or there is corruption at the agency then I would get them through the process in a clean manner. And let me tell you all the companies come here, not just Su. When Bechtel come here, a big US company they ask to see us too. Not because they are paying a bribe, Exxon would come they would ask to meet with me not because they are paying a bribe. And they can get prosecuted globally. So don’t make it sound like only the Chinese companies, and in fact…
Interviewer: I am not suggesting that it is just the Chinese companies (inaudible)…
Jagdeo: In fact I have probably met less Chinese companies than American companies coming here on a whole range of issues.
Interviewer: I am not just saying, I am not just saying (becomes inaudible)
Jagdeo: But you realise how unreasonable it is to ask me to comment. Somebody makes an allegation you say oh this person told me this and then expect me to comment on it. What do I say? Except to say it’s not true.
